Talk:Drukpa Kunley

Story of elderly Dugpa Kunlegs attacking a young lady at a brook gathering water.

According to Alexandra David-Neel in her 1931 English translation of WITH MYSTICS AND MAGICIANS IN TIBET. A story told about the elderly Dugpa Kunlegs he often travelled as a vagabond and happened along a brook where a young lady was gathering water. Dugpa attacked her to violate her. Her being young and healthy fought him off. She ran home and told her mother. Wanting to ascertain the identity of the attacker the mother drilled the daughter for every detail of the man. The description fit no men from the village so it was believed to be a traveler. After hearing all the details the mother came to the realization that man was the saintly llama Dugpa Kinlegs the mother had met on a pilgrimage. Since the Saintly llama is seen to be above worldly laws by virtue that everything the saints do is for the good of the people, the mother instructed her daughter to the brook, prostrate herself and submit to any request of the llama. Chapter one Tibet and the llamas. Pg 39. 47.32.137.60 (talk) 22:41, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

"Buddhist Monk"

My edit from "monk" to "accomplished siddha" was reverted immediately by Skyerise with the comment, "trained at and established a monastery; monks don't have to remain monks for life".

DK was trained as a monk, but he gave back his robes (no longer making him a monk). Because he is very famous and known for his activities after giving back his robes, I think the opening paragraph and intro should not describe him as a monk. His bio can certainly include his training and background as a monk. I'd like to open this up to discussion. Badabara (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Typically, the lead sentence is inclusive of all the roles a subject held during their life. Skyerise (talk) 16:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

By your logic, the opening sentence to Chögyam Trungpa should be "was a Tibetan Buddhist monk".

Now that we've established your point of view and my point of view, let's open the topic to others. Badabara (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that omission. I've added monk to the lead of Chögyam Trungpa. Please note that as all articles are written by volunteers, they are never definitive examples of how other articles should be. Skyerise (talk) 16:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You added "monk who renounced his monastic vows in 1969". Perhaps you can edit accordingly for this page as well? Thank you for your volunteer work! Badabara (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The date was in the article. Do you have sources for Drukpa Kunley's renunciation and date? We know he was a monk, but without a source that he renounced his vows, we have to assume he remained a monk. Skyerise (talk) 10:14, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Good question. I'll start digging for a date. In the meantime, here's a quote from DK, page 102 Dowman's book:

"If I became a Lama I would be the slave of my attendant disciples, and I would lose my freedom of action. If I became an ordained monk I would be obliged to keep the discipline, and who can keep their vows unbroken constantly? If I became a Sage I should engage myself in discovering the Nature of Mind – as if that were not already self-evident!”

Excerpt From

The Divine Madman: The Sublime Life and Songs of Drukpa Kunley

Keith Dowman Badabara (talk) 16:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

That would be both self-sourced and rhetorical. Monastic schools require monastic vows (sometimes only "novice" ones), but monasteries are rarely if ever founded by anyone but fully-ordained monastics. Clearly he was a monk sometime before he wrote this, but "If I became an ordained monk again" would not have satisfied his rhetorical intent. Skyerise (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The Treasury of Lives confirms this: "Drukpa Kunle took his novice monastic vows before the abbot of Nenying (gnas rnying) at a place called Nyingro Menchuka (rnying ro sman chu kha), near to Gyangtse in south Tibet. Later on, he took full ordination vows before a prominent member of Zhalu (zhwa lu) Monastery, Khyen Rabpa (zhwa lu rje khyen rab pa, d.u.), and was given the name Kunga Lekpa Peljor Zangpo (kun dga' legs pa dpal 'byor bzang po)." Skyerise (talk) 16:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Later, it says "At some point during his life Drukpa Kunle returned his monastic vows and took a wife, whose name was Tsewang Dzom (tshe dbang 'dzom)." Skyerise (talk) 16:24, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

His wife may have been a relative of the Queen of Zangskar, mentioned in Site Unseen: Approaching a Royal Buddhist Monument of Zangskar. The chorten murals described place this after the ascension of the 3rd Dalai Lama but before that of the 4th, so it seems the period is about right, and the article mentions the Drukpa Kagyu repeatedly. Skyerise (talk) 16:46, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

He returned his robes before the age of 25. Chapter one of Downman's books "How Drukpa Kunley became an Ascetic Wanderer...”, pg 28-29:

"Through a synthesis of the meaning of all the oral instruction he had received, he discovered the key to all realization: Be aware! Guard the mind! Upon this understanding, he offered his robes to the image of Buddha, and as a mendicant wandering wherever he would, he abandoned systematic yoga and meditation.”

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(offering one's robes before an alter is the traditional way of giving back one's robes)

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The book goes on to say, “By the age of twenty-five, Kunga Legpa had gained mastery of both mundane and spiritual arts.”

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It is not accurate to say one must be a monk to found a monastery. There are many examples of lay practitioner Lamas founding monasteries. Someone else would need to give the Vinaya vows to the monks. All other tantric vows can be given without. Guru Rinpoche established the first monastery in Tibet and he was never a monk. Badabara (talk) 17:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Lay practitioners are frequently patrons who pay for the founding of monasteries. And Guru Rinpoche was indeed a monk, though not necessarily throughout his entire life. This is symbolized by the three sets of robes he wears in his iconography. From his article "Padmasambhava wears a white vajra undergarment. On top of this, in layers, a red robe, a dark blue mantrayana tunic, a red monastic shawl decorated with a golden flower pattern, and a maroon cloak of silk brocade. Also, he wears a silk cloak, Dharma robes and gown. He is wearing the dark blue gown of a mantra practitioner, the red and yellow shawl of a monk, the maroon cloak of a king, and the red robe and secret white garments of a bodhisattva." |Skyerise (talk) 17:40, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Very interesting. This is a thought provoking conversation. However, we are not yet at an agreement. Quick search shows GR was ordained by Ananda, so he founded Samye Ling 1200 years after taking monks vows. He murdered barbaric people and took consorts around the time of founding Samya Ling, so logic would say he was no longer a monk. Iconography depicting monks robes shows his hagiography and history, but is not an argument that he was a monk at the time of founding Samye Ling. Can you show proof GR was a monk when he founded Samye Ling? If not, your statement "monasteries are rarely if ever founded by anyone but fully-ordained monastics" may still be true, but in the case of Samye Ling and Chimi Lhakhang, both were founded by monks who gave back their vows.

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At some point we simply need to change the opening sentence to "monk who renounced his monastic vows by the age of 25" or something similar we can agree on. Badabara (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources say "he took ordination from Prabhahasti in Zahor, and was given the name Shakya Sengé, ‘Lion of the Shakyas’." You don't seem to have a firm grasp of the way the Tibetan Buddhist tradition works. All Lamas must be monks at some point during their career, though they may return those vows. In Nyingma, at least, they can also take them up again. I think it's three times... Also, monks are not permitted to discuss the details of ordination and vows except with other monks or serious aspirants. Thus a non-monastic cannot possibly run a monastery, as they would not have any basis to maintain the discipline of the resident monastics, nor be able to preside over the ceremonies that are used to correct infractions. Skyerise (talk) 17:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks like you commented while I was writing. I'll post again:

Very interesting. This is a thought provoking conversation. However, we are not yet at an agreement. Quick search shows GR was ordained by Ananda, so he founded Samye Ling 1200 years after taking monks vows. He murdered barbaric people and took consorts around the time of founding Samya Ling, so logic would say he was no longer a monk. Iconography depicting monks robes shows his hagiography and history, but is not an argument that he was a monk at the time of founding Samye Ling. Can you show proof GR was a monk when he founded Samye Ling? If not, your statement "monasteries are rarely if ever founded by anyone but fully-ordained monastics" may still be true, but in the case of Samye Ling and Chimi Lhakhang, both were founded by monks who gave back their vows.

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At some point we simply need to change the opening sentence to "monk who renounced his monastic vows by the age of 25" or something similar we can agree on. Badabara (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You don't read very closely, do you? Chimi Lhakhang was founded and built by the Drukpa Kagyu lama Ngawang Chogyal, who was abbot of Ralung Monastery. Kunley, his cousin, merely dowsed (temple sites are found using a form of dowsing: I know because I received training on the process in shedra), cleared, and blessed the site and built a chorten or stupa there, neither of which requires one to be a monastic. Generally, whoever is considered best at it is chosen for the job, though sometimes a relative is handy.

As for the ordination of GR by Ananda, even Tibetan Buddhists would agree that that is myth or legend. That's why I provided the more historic ordination, which takes place where GR was actually from rather than pretending he was in India centuries before his birth. I do not believe you could find any source that GR renounced his vows. They are simply interpreted differently at each Yana. I'm not at liberty to say more about that, but if you want to say GR renounced his monastic vows, you'd better have a source. He is well-known as holder of the "three sets of vows" – those of personal liberation, that of a Bodhisattva, and the Vajrayana samayas – as represented by his three sets of robes.

In any case, your idea that Guru Rinpoche founded Samye is also incorrect, again due to not reading closely and having preconceived ideas. It was Shantarakshita who began construction of Samye around 763, but he had problems and Guru Rinpoche came to Tibet to help him. In fact, he played more or less the same role that Kunley played: tamer of local spirits. Specifically, Padmasambhava performed the Vajrakilaya dance and enacted the rite of namkha to assist Trisong Detsen and Śāntarakṣita clear away obscurations and hindrances in the building of Samye. He was neither the founder or builder of Samye, that was Shantarakshita.

It occurs to me that you might have made these factual mistakes due to some bias against the Vajrayana. I see you. Skyerise (talk) 22:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Personal attacks move the discussion away from the article and towards individuals.

I will point out I have stayed on topic until now. The following statements you made are personal attacks, " It occurs to me that you might have made these factual mistakes due to some bias against the Vajrayana", "You don't read very closely, do you?", "You don't seem to have a firm grasp of the way the Tibetan Buddhist tradition works."

So I will throw tomatoes back at you. Your pride, and your insults are very unbecoming of anyone who wishes to possess the qualities of compassion and wisdom.

Now back to the subject at hand:

Despite popular and anecdotal misconceptions, being a monk is not a preliminary requirement of becoming a Lama. Not only did the 6th Dalai Lama refuse to take full monastic vows, but he returned the novice vows he had already taken.

Marpa was married when he met his teachers Naropa and Maitripa. He took the bodhisattva and Vajrayana promises and was a perfect vessel for the Kagyu lineage. He had no previous monastic vows.

Vajrayana was not born in Tibet, but in India, and the first Vajrayana student of the Buddha was a king, who asked for teachings that he could put into use, because he intended to stay a king. There are countless Indian Mahasiddhas that did not start as monks.

Historically in Tibet there were monks/nuns, yogis and lay practitioners. None were seen as more Buddhist or Vajrayana than the other, until monastic power structures attempted to re-write a biased history. Your assessment is due to a lack of information, despite your pride. If you disagree, rather than slinging mud at me, share a Vajrayana text that specifically states that monk ordination is a prerequisite to becoming a lama or yogi. Badabara (talk) 23:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

My observations don't fall under the NPA policy. Nobody said ordination is required for being a yogi, a siddha, or Mahasiddha. You are mixing categories. I also did not say full ordination is required for a lama. However, lamas are required to have certain training. To acquire that training they must take novice vows for the duration of the training. I meant no more than that. They are still lamas, even if they don't take full ordination or if they return their vows. I never suggested otherwise. I know yogis who teach; they tell their students not to call them lama, because technically they are not, having not been made lamas. To become a lama, one must complete a three-year retreat, typically holding at least novice vows for the duration of the retreat. So even if a lama is more informally trained by a yogi rather than in a monastic setting, they have spent at least three years as a monastic during their retreat. Skyerise (talk) 07:36, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. Also thank you for your edits and contributions on this page. A pleasure doing business with you. Badabara (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

May the sky melt into you like a big blue pancake! Skyerise (talk) 21:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)